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In fact, Protestants believe in many doctrines that are not found in scripture like their 66 book cannon of scripture where that public revelation ended in the first century. Before the 2001 regular season, Christie was placed on IR from an offseason groin injury having accuracy problems during the preseason being replaced by Jake Arians prior to the start of the season. Thank you very much, Trent. Steve Ray is a Apologetics, Convert, Evangelist travelling from , Michigan. For example, if the Bible taught that Mary gave birth to other children, that she committed a sin, or that she was not assumed into heaven, the dogmas would be falsified. Christie scored 163 points for the Bucs in 1990-91 and became an NFL free agent after two seasons, signing a free agent contract in 1992 with the Buffalo Bills. Okay. Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. I mean, you got me on the spot. Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. Well, theres Pokemon The First Movie, and it was so bad, there were no other movies. Well, oh, can I have a [inaudible 01:22:11]. I didnt bring up [Greek 00:52:36]. David K. Clark - apologist with notable books; teaches at Bethel Seminary. Steve, you are going to be beginning with 15 minutes. No one else ever before in the history of salvation had been asked to do something like that. Hes saying that every ethnic group is guilty of sin, whether youre a Jew or a non Jew. So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. The Counsel of Trent 46.3K subscribers In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian. He claims this shows Jesus believed the Old Testament was confined to Genesis (or Abel) and 2 Chronicles (or Zechariah). Solo performances by Steve Christie bring all the sound of a live band to your special event. And the other issue is a fact, is that even though a Pope would not be allowed to declare something that goes against what the magisterium teaches and the magisterium I doubt would ever teach about worshiping Mary, whats interesting is that according to Lumen Gentium, it says that even when the Pope is not speaking ex cathedral, you must actually listen to what the Pope says. And Ill leave it at that. Do it, or dont do it. And I think thats something that we do find. Theres nothing in scripture that states that Mary was an exception to this. 16. He would end up playing two years for the Buccaneers. Edward John Carnell - was a prominent and influential Christian theologian and apologist. It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. And my focus was on the word, adelphi, which Trent really didnt focus on, on his opening statement. I dont have a problem with the word a adelphos, that was never my argument. We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. For forty years he has been a fixture in the firmament of the apologetic pantheon, lecturing worldwide and publishing popular books like The End of Reason and Jesus Among Other Gods. This is fantastic. Abraham believed God, and it was credited or imputed to him as righteousness so that he might be the father of all who believed that righteousness might be credited or imputed to them.. What about the other Marian Dogmas? Thank you very much, Steve. And I could talk about what that verse means in a lot of different context, but what is the difference between being sinful and becoming sin? I had mentioned about the immaculate conception not being declared ex cathedra because this was before Vatican I in 1870 that declared that when a Pope declared something ex cathedra, then its considered infallible. Okay. Christie claims the Hebrew canon was closed by Ezra and other learned men at an event called the Great Synagogue. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Finally, the point about Mary dying, I think Steve was really missing this here. The word adelphos is used numerous times in both the Old and New Testament to describe people who have had the same parents. When it comes to ancient Jewish authors, Christians shouldnt be con-cerned if they, like most Jews today, didnt believe the deuterocanonical books were Scripture. But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. I would probably enjoy Clement of Rome, even though 1 Clement wasnt written by an individual, but rather there was a poly group of bishops in 1 Clement. Since he is the uncreated sinless deity conceived by the holy spirit. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. Christiaan Kappes. If she is not righteous, then Jesus did not redeem her and she is still dead in her trespasses and sins. And I would also address that Luke actually specifically states that it is a salutation. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. So while not common, it is used. For example, Strongs 80, are you aware that it describes adelphos, it says a brother, a member of the same religious community, a fellow Christian. Okay. No, it doesnt say that but it doesnt say Joseph was bodily assumed into heaven and the same three dogmas could apply to Joseph as well, but we dont make as much why is there not a dogma those dogmas apply to Joseph. But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. Heres a question that I have that Id be interested in both of you answering. Brant Pitre has some great work on Mary as well for people to check out. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. Because there would be no reason to rescue her from death because a purpose of a bodily assumption into heaven is so an individual would not see death. The phrase [foreign language 00:26:17] is used throughout the Septuagint or the Greek Old Testament without implying any kind of reversal. Morgan Stanley Wealth Management 631-755-8843. Like infant baptism, the cessation of charismatic gifts, for example. You would expect there to be deviations from it. So, if the greatest of those born before Christ wasnt constricted to accepting the canon Christie is defending, then we shouldnt be compelled to do the same, either. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. Luke 2:7 describes Jesus as the firstborn of Mary, although the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:11] translated firstborn, can indicate firstborn opening the womb and is used this way in the New Testament. This sure is fun, isnt it? (Hebrews 11:35b, 2 Maccabees 6,7), Is the Apocrypha or Deutero-Canonical Books Part of the Bible? Sure. So lets stick with what scripture actually supports. I do talk about this in my book and there, I note that its used differently than in Sirach 18:17, where the word is also used in those situations. Posts about Steve Jobs written by Christian Apologist. So as far as I know, I dont know offhand but that doesnt mean that its not being used. The Greek word translated until does not exclude normal marital conduct after Jesus birth. Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. Okay. Should we baptize babies or not? I just want to make sure. Okay. She goes on to say, My spirit rejoices in God, my savior for or because he has regarded the lowest state of his handmaiden. Mary then describes how God saves people from threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry. EDWARD D. ANDREWS (AS in Criminal Justice, BS in Religion, MA in Biblical Studies, and MDiv in Theology) is CEO and President of Christian Publishing House. Trent, do you want to start or do you want me to answer that first? It is not mentioned in any book of the Bible, protocanonical or deuterocanonical, nor in any ancient nonbiblical witnesses such as Josephus or Philo. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. Yes. Mounce writes, Nicodemus politely says Jesus is a teacher; but when Nicodemus does not understand the necessity of a spiritual rebirth, Jesus questions his status as the teacher, an authoritative rabbi (A Teacher or The Teacher?). As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. For example, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. Yeah. In Ineffabilis Deus, where immaculate conception is defined, the word unanimous appears once. James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . . I would argue that the dogmas are not explicitly mentioned in Scripture and they do not affect salvation. I command that you do it. Christie also served as an analyst for The Score Television Network. I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. Okay. The relevance would be that you are using it. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. As Roman Catholics, because Mary was not an issue, they did have a problem with her being a perpetual Virgin and I believe Calvin was kind of on the fence about it, so its irrelevant because theyre Catholic. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. I think it provides strong evidence for it. I wouldnt assume that that involves a vow virginity, but I think theres a different context in relation to the fact that we have betrothal between Mary and Joseph, that its an odd construction. Okay, so now we are going to move into 10-minute rebuttals. First theres a dogma of Theotokos, Mary being the mother of God. Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. Yet, if Mary did not inherit the stain of original sin passed down from Adam, she would not have died and therefore no need to rescue her from death before her earthly life ended. Good to hear from you again. So Im not saying that Catholics are actively worshiping Mary or statues of Mary, but we have to be careful with the word of veneration. Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. And Trent and I would agree that doesnt mean it, in fact, that wasnt even an argument. [Greek 00:53:10] in the Old Testament is described as a savior, but not as a savior from sin. I think youve already said to some degree youre okay referring to Mary as the mother of God. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? So this first question is for both of you, well start with Trent and then Steve, this comes from Estaban. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. He says, this is a question for Steve. They were committed to Sola scriptura but we also have to remember that even though they were formers, they were also Roman Catholics and their issue with Romans was not about Marian dogmas, it was about the authority of scripture over the authority of the church. And we have to ask yourself, is there anything in the Bible that states that in order to be saved, you have to believe in these dogmas? All right. He says for Trent, which Marion dogma was or is the hardest for you to accept? Second, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Jehoiada, not Berechiah. Marys special, unique status and her being mother of God is something throughout the fathers, definitely. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. William Albrecht has done a lot of great work on Mary. Well, a lot to cover here. While Mary is a conceived in sin creation. But let me get to that point about death though. Oh, youre on mute. St. Jerome, who was skeptical of the manuscript history behind these books, even tells us that at the Council of Nicaea the deuterocanonical work of Judith was considered part of the canon of Scripture. For more information, visit trenthornpodcast.com. Luke 2:7, Steve said, Well, look. And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. So lets take a look at them. 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